Climbing The MMA Ladder
From Old School
With both The UFC and Bellator fixing to put on record numbers of shows in the year 2012, there will be more and opportunities for our top regional fighters to move up to the Big Show than ever before. But as these opportunities are created, the regional MMA scene is beginning to change as fighters start managing their careers with the goal of making it to the top level. More and more we are hearing about our regions best MMA fighters taking the fights “that make sense”. One of the realities of this process is that it is often very difficult for unranked or unheralded fighters to sign the fights necessary to get themselves to that level, even if their skill and potential say that they belong there.
The UFC/Strikeforce and Bellator are constantly searching for the next level of talent. We know that there are two main sources that they go to; fighters with Big Show experience and the rest of the region’s top ranked/regarded fighters. For example, last December, UFC veteran Ricardo Funch and #2 regionally ranked Welterweight Ryan Quinn hooked up at the Mullins Center for a three round war that Ricardo Funch won by Decision. Ricardo got the call just a few days after to come back to the UFC. Earlier in the fall of 2011, another UFC veteran, Gabriel Gonzaga, beat the top ranked NorthEast Heavyweight Parker Porter, and subsequently, Gonzaga got the call back to the Big Show as well. When Bellator visits New England several times each year, they generally fill up the undercard with some of the best NorthEast regional talent that is available.
In order to be the best, one has to beat the best. In order to beat the best, however, one has to first negotiate to fight the best.
With more and more high end fighters taking only tough fights that make sense, it can be difficult for the rising star to crack into that “regional elite” category. Before Ryan Quinn fought Funch, he fought and beat the top ranked 170 pounder in the NorthEast, Brett Oteri, thus moving himself along side of Marcus Davis as one of the top two Welterweights currently fighting in the region. (For Ryan, that fight was tough and, career-wise, made sense.) The Funch v Quinn fight was also a very tough fight that made sense for both fighters. It was tough in that Funch is a returning UFC veteran and Quinn was highly ranked. It made perfect career sense because the winner got the call to the UFC; the loser got the call back to Bellator. (Quinn will be facing Marc Stevens on the next Mohegan Sun Bellator card.) For Ryan Quinn and Ricardo Funch, that fight had all the up-side of a date with the UFC and no down-side at all. That’s a win-win!
With so much on the line for these top regional fighters, many of them cannot afford a bad loss. Every fighter can handle any win that comes his way, but certain losses can spell doom for that very same fighter. Mike Campbell is one such fighter. Mike is a beast. (Actually, his nickname IS “The Beast”.) When Mike lost to Anthony Pettis in the WEC in 2009, we really didn’t know just how good Pettis was at the time; and Mike was winning that fight until he went into Pettis’ guard. The WEC (now UFC) released Mike after that fight. Since then, Mike has gone 4-2. One of those losses came against Magno Almeida, who then got the call from Strikeforce after beating Mike. One of Mike’s wins came against Yves Edwards, who got the call to Bellator after his loss to Mike Campbell, and Yves is currently back with the UFC. I spoke with Mike recently and he explained how he is right on that fringe, where the UFC is talking to him, but hasn’t fully committed to him just yet. So, at this point it seems as though one more win against the right guy will get Mike that call back that he so deserves, but the wrong loss could put him off their radar. Mike needs the right fight.
How does the rising star crack into that top regional tier when so many of the ranked fighters are only taking fights that make sense? Jimmy Quinlan is one example of a future MMA star who is hard to match right now. He is 1-0, his only fight being a win over Josh Mellen (who was 1-2 at the time) back in June of 2011. Since that time, Jimmy hasn’t been able to lock down a fight that will come to fruition, while Josh Mellen has fought four more times. Jimmy Quinlan is a former college wrestling Conference Champ and a Pan Am Games Gold Medalist in BJJ. He is, also, too risky of an opponent for an average Middleweight. For a highly ranked fighter, a win against him has no upside, while a loss to him (an unranked 1-0 fighter) could be devastating to the ranked guy hoping for the UFC or Bellator opportunity. Jimmy Quinlan is an unranked fighter who could probably beat most of the ranked middleweights on a given day (and they all know this), but is not likely to have that opportunity any time soon.
Brennan Ward is another MMA fighter generally unknown outside of the tight regional inner circle. I have it on good authority that this guy is college All American wrestler and NCAA runner up who had a couple of Ammy MMA fights a few years back. In his most recent fight, his opponent backed out a week or so before the fight. A replacement, according to promotional rep, agreed to take the fight, but then backed out when he Google searched Ward’s history. Josh Mellen (again) filled in on a few days’ notice. Brennan Ward is too risky for a fringe fighter to take on. There’s no upside for a ranked guy to fight him. And there are only so many Josh Mellen’s kicking around. Josh is now 1-7, and his losses have all come against guys with winning records. (Josh’s seven losses have come against opponents that have a combined record of 18-4.)
I hear some trash talk that this ranked guy is afraid to fight Jimmy Quinlan, or that ranked guy should fight Brennan Ward. I’ve even heard a few people talking that Jimmy and Brennan should fight each other. (Currently, they are both fighting at Middleweight.)
Would Filthy Perry Filkins (#5 ranked and 6-1) be crazy to fight Jimmy Quinlan? Filthy is coming off a win over a Bellator and Strikeforce veteran (Louis Taylor, then 7-2) and is right in the cross hairs of the Big Show. (Prior to beating Taylor, Filkins beat Bob Burton and Chris Haggerty, who were fighters that brought little up-side to the cage, but also posed very little risk of actually beating Filthy Perry.) Only a win against a known commodity gets him that call, and Jimmy Quinlan is not that known commodity; not yet! Jimmy Quinlan may pose way too much risk with no up-side for a guy like Filthy Perry.
Brennan Ward poses the very same dilemma as does Quinlan. Ward is a National caliber athlete without the MMA pedigree, and that may be way too much risk for a ranked Middleweight fighter who has slugged it out in the trenches over the past four years to get where he is today.
I have even heard talk that Brennan and Jimmy should fight one another. This fight would be a great fight that should happen in two years, not now. Right now, the general MMA fans wouldn’t appreciate the magnitude of it; two years from now, when they are each 7-0, it will be a block buster event for a Bellator card or a big money Main Event for a regional show. A Brennan Ward v Jimmy Quinlan right now would ensure that one of these future stars with Big Show potential would begin his career with an early loss. If Jimmy Quinlan has no real up-side at 1-0, how much up-side will a College wrestling Champ and Pan Am Games Medalist have if he is 1-1? I would pose the same question regarding Brennan Ward.
Ricardo Georges is an example of a potential stud fighter (7-1 Amateur MMA) who lost his first Pro fight to a BJJ stud Carlos Neto. His second Pro fight against Ryan Sanders (we are starting to believe his hype) was scratched. But if Ricardo lost his first two Pro fights, just who is going to step up and fight a Pro Welterweight with a 0-2 record who was the baddest Amateur in the NorthEast and still possesses the power to end your night with one punch? Even at 0-1, Ricardo may be another Welterweight Pro who will have a real hard time finding fights in the next year or so.
Ryan Sanders (3-0) is a rapidly rising Welterweight who just ran off his third straight win in a row, this one against former ranked Middleweight Dan Keefe. Because Ryan doesn’t have that American Wrestling pedigree or BJJ Black Belt, he has been largely viewed as a beatable fighter with a pretty good record. His recent win over Keefe shocked a lot of New England MMA junkies, and that win may have vaulted him into the top ten when the new rankings come out. The fact that he finished Keefe in the first round will also open the eyes of the rest of the Welterweight division. Keefe needed that win to jump start his once thriving career, and he obviously viewed Sanders (a 2-0 fighter from Northern Maine) as good enough to challenge himself yet beatable on a given night. Would Dan Keefe have taken the Ryan Sanders fight if Sanders was a former NCAA Wrestling Champ and four time All American with that same 2-0 MMA record?
Dany Lauzon (16-4) just keeps on fighting tough guys and finishing the fights. Dany was cut loose by the UFC in 2010 and has since run off four consecutive wins against tough opponents and has his fifth fight (against Don Carlo-Clauss) coming up in five weeks. In each of his four wins he has dominated his opponent. Dan has never looked so good, and as long as he keeps winning he will get the call back to the Big Show in another win or two. But of all of Lauzon’s opponents in the stint since his release from the UFC, Carlo-Clauss is the one who stands the best chance of beating him; this is probably the toughest fight that Dan will have had. But the up-side to this fight is that if Dan wins this one and finishes Carlo-Clauss, he is probably headed back to the Big Stage.
Early on in his Pro Career, Nick Newell (6-0, #5 ranked) was already fairly Notorious; because he has an apparent disability, most Lightweights didn’t want to fight him. He had the worst time finding opponents. Several cancelled out on him; one even blew off the fight at the weigh-ins without notice. The reason is obvious; there was no up-side and too much down-side to fighting Notorious Nick. Nick’s first five opponents only had combined for two wins. It wasn’t until Nick’s 61 second submission of Anthony Kaponis (4-3), who had lost a five round decision to Matt Bessette (one that most people in attendance thought Anthony had won), that Nick found his way into the rankings.
With YouTube and all that the internet provides, it is very difficult for anyone to sneak up on the game any more. Every coach and fighter will research his opponent thoroughly, and even the simplest Google search will turn up a load of pertinent information on a fighter. Fighters who are considerably better than their records indicate will find it difficult to get the right fights that they need. (Jimmy Quinlan is still a whole lot better than his 1-0 record indicates, and is, thus, a very difficult guy to match.) Sityodtong Heavyweight Johnny Johnston (2-0) told me that he went right to the Pro MMA circuit partly because he really wasn’t able to land any Ammy fights due to his skill set that he brought over from Thai Boxing. (There were a few other reasons too.) By the same reasoning, a fighter whose record looks a lot better than his actual skill level will always find willing opponents.
Just how does the former All American wrestler or BJJ stud get those first five or six fights? Once he gets to 2-0 he becomes really hard to match up; ranked fighters may not want any part of him and there are only so many fighters with losing records that are willing to take the fight for the pay check. The fighter’s management needs to find competent opponents and a promotion that is willing to pay those opponents nicely. The future Stud may even have to put the fight purse in a place of lesser importance than the fight itself. Maybe the answer lies with an agreement with a single promoter who is willing to make the commitment to bring in fighters to face the future star even if the opponent (with a 4-4 record, say) gets paid more money than the 2-0 stud himself. For some fighters the up-side is in the pay check only and not in the fight itself; the “opponent” sees the up-side as purely monetary.
Whenever two fighters meet, the winner will likely walk away with all that the other has brought to the cage. That could be his Championship Belt or maybe just his place in the rankings. Therefore, the ranked fighter needs to be sure that there is at least some up-side to every fight that he takes, or there is nothing to be gained. The 7-1 top ranked fighter brings a lot more to the table than the 1-0 unranked fighter who just finished his college wrestling career.
I recently had confirmation that Brandon Fleming (7-0 Amateur) will make his Pro debut next month on the Bellator Mohegan Sun card!!! (Yeah, leave it to a South Shore Sport Fighting guy to break the rules.) Typically we have come to expect that the Amateurs are just developing their games and should not concern themselves too much with their won/loss record. Not any more…
The times they are a changing!
Old School
Sounds like Quinlan should go strait to the show, you are gasing him up like he fights out of TPS LOL.
No disrespect to Jimmy he is a beast, but I love the gasing up of dudes on this site.
Lol
Very relevant article Denny and well written as usual. I guess this is a good place to throw a shout out to all the 145 ammys. were looking for a fight for ray wood April 14 at fight night 2 in Maine. if your interested contact Matt Peterson. keep up the great work Denny!!
To lol,
There’s no gas needed for Jimmy. I first heard of Jimmy through Greg Rebello. Greg told me that there’s this new guy who is one of the toughest 185ers out there and he’s 0-0 and having a hard time finding opponents. Jimmy is a college wrestling champ and a Pan Am Games gold medalist and a high risk fighter for anybody at 185; that’s all.
Brennan Ward is coming into the same place that Jimmy Quinlan is now living. Nick Newell’s already been there.
As far a “gassing” fighters, a few readers gave me some crap about building up Crazy Ray Wood and ranking him too high too soon, but nobody’s laughing now. Very few people really gave Ryan Sanders much of a chance against Dan Keefe outside of myself and a few hundred MMAiners. But, lol, understand that I get to see forty to fifty fight cards per year, which is a lot more than most people. Sometimes you’ve gotta see a fighter to really understand just what he’s made of.
Old School
It takes some guts to write an article like this that some people might take offense at. Every time you’ve “gassed up” a fighter (there’s a phrase that hopefully gets consigned to the same dustbin as “that’s the illest” and “it’s Miller time”) they’ve proven you right. Keep up the good work!
An article that needed to be written. Too long have fighters been stuck between a rock(Fighting way above your status) and a hard place(‘Padding’ your record with who you can find to take a fight).
It seems that after a couple of fights(and it’s happening in the ammy ranks too), no one worth their salt will take a fight with another good fighter, and good fighters get called out for fighting ‘chumps’, when that’s all who will dare to take a fight with them.
The result ends up being that your above average 4-0 or 5-2 fighter makes the big show off of ‘easier’ fights, and gets chin checked his first time against a good fighter. It’s easy to blame ‘big show jitters’ on crapping out in the big time, when sometimes, it’s the fact that they’ve never been pressured in the smaller shows.
It’s tough to get good fights together because 85% of the fighters out there, regardless of their record or ability, are positive they’re going to be in the UFC someday. It was almost BETTER back when there was less higher level opportunity. Most guys fought for a little walking around change and respect because they knew the UFC was a pipe dream. Now everyone is gearing up for a run at the UFC no matter how good or bad they are and putting as much time into personal match making as they are training.
Denny,
You are the man.
Enough said,
Mangler
I agree with Mark. It was ALMOST better. Anytime changes are made, there are positive and negative effects. The negative part is that Ricardo Georges, Jimmy Quinlan, etc. are gonna have a tough time finding fights. The positive is that those who do find and win the right fights get a chance to have a longer and more lucrative career. Good luck to everyone, I hope you make it as far as your talent and desire deserve.
To lol, If anyone is going to give old school a hard time on anything (everything) its ME! How I’ve let it be known I feel him biased at times and what not, but quite he hit this one on the head here. Another good Article to maybe be considered is the sacrifice outside the cage These athletes have to go through to in hopes one day make their mark.
there is a ton of new up and comming fighters out there . we are suffering growing pains in the sport right now . this will change ! also its a big world out there , you can travel to find a fight if need be . the wins dont have to be in your own back yard . great artical denny ,
You want to know the biggest thing getting in the way for some (I said some) of these guys? Money. I’ve had guys who were about to make a pro debut that were sure they were going to be great pros…either high level BJJ aces, big time college wrestlers, or guys with a flashy amateur record. They would come to me looking to make their pro debut, and want to be paid like they were stud pro fighters. If you’re fighting for the first time as a pro, take the $200-$400 the promoter is offering you and get your fight. Then when you’re looking for your second pro fight, take the $250-$500 the promoter is offering and get your fight.
You should not start asking for $1000 a fight until you’ve won like 4 or 5 fights and you beat a ranked guy. If you’re a prick about it, can you get $1000 in your 2nd or 3rd fight if you look around forever and refuse to fight for less? Maybe. If you’re a guy like Jimmy Quinlan, yeah…some promoter will pay you $1000 in your second fight because of your future potential, but it’ll take you 3-4 years to get the 5-0 record you’ll likely need to get to a big show.
Look at guys like Rick Hawn. Do you think that guy was easy to match? He’s a fucking beast that was in the Olympics for judo. All the talk about all american wrestler, or black belt in BJJ is trumped by an Olympian in my book…and he was brutally knocking guys out. He stopped his first 4 opponents by KO/TKO in the first round, yet somehow he was able to get 5 fights in like 8 months. He was 5-0 and obviously on the way to the big show when he took a really tough fight at WCF 9. How much do you guys think he made in that fight? I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but WCF never paid the crazy money some of the other promoters pay.
It’s really simple. Denny mentioned it above. If you are willing to fight for a little less than you might be worth, the promoter can give the other guy more cash to take the fight. Promoters typically have a set budget for their fights. We know what we can afford to pay. If you want to be paid like a superstar, that leaves less money for your opponent, and people will take much less risky fights for short money. It’s simple economics. In case you haven’t heard the story, Joe Lauzon fought Mike Brown for ticket money. No show money, no win bonus…took the toughest fight of his career for a small % of the tickets he sold. You think he regrets it now while he’s cashing his checks from the UFC? Doubt it.
Don’t like what I just said and want to change the math around a bit? Then sell some fucking tickets. If you bring more money in, you can make more money. It’s really simple. The problem is, many of these “sure to be superstar” guys want to be paid big money before they’ve earned it. The average fan attending MMA shows doesn’t know (and wouldn’t care even if they did) that you’re a stud wrestler, or that you’ve been training since you were 12.
It may be a harsh reality check, but look at the guys who are studs but fight all the time. When Mike Campbell wanted to get to the UFC, he took tough fights for short money and sold a ton of tickets. Every promoter was begging the kid to fight. How much do you think he was paid to fight Rich Moskowitz? I’ll tell you what…it was less than I’ve had some 2-0 guys turn down. He took a small show/win purse, and took 25% of ticket sales. You think Kipp at Reality Fighting paid him a ton of money to fight for his title? Doubtful.
Jon Jones is the best fighter to ever compete in New England, and he won 4 or 5 fights in like 6 months. You think he was paid like the stud college wrestler he was?
What Denny mentioned above happens all the time. If you’re a stud and need some fights to prove your a stud to get into a big show, call a promoter and tell him you’ll fight for a few hundred bucks. They’ll pay your opponents what they’re asking for, and you’ll have that 5-0 record by the end of 2012.
Rick,
I like your thoughts on the subject. Have you ever seen “A Beautiful Mind”, about the Nobel Prize winner with schizophrenia? He came up with something called “game theory”, which basically said that it is better to cooperate with others rather than compete with them.
Everyone needs to make a dollar for sure. But I am sure (just like any business) some guys ask for a crazy amount when they simply don’t to take the fight with out saying it. If You are on the independent circuit you are there for a reason. a big win in a small show just makes you a big fish in a small pond. It shouldn’t immediately get you a raise. Local shows are to make your name and build your resume, not to make your paycheck.
^ this
excellent post rick
I just want the pay check..
Great post by Rick. Rick hints at what may be the solution to many of the challenges facing fighters, promoters, and the regional MMA game today.
Old School
Great post Rick. Nice to hear someone finally say it.
It’s really simple, you need to figure out what you want to do. If your goal is to fight for a living, you should take fights for short money at the local level so you can get as many fights as you want/need. If you’re not good enough to fight in the UFC, or you aren’t trying to make a career out of it, you should squeeze every penny you can out of the local promoters. You can’t do both.
and continuing in Rick’s thoughts…
We have had a number of guys who fought locally in the ‘new era’ of MMA to go to the next level with great success (Lauzon, Grispi, Jones). We have also had a number go on, have 2 or 3 fights and get released. I will pick a couple of names and thankfully this isnt the UG, so I wont get banned for fighter bashing.. Ricardo Funch, had 5 local fights and then 1 in Texas before going to the WEC; Dale Hartt fought 4 times (with a BIG win over Matt Lee).
Had these guys had a 4 or 5 more local fights they would have been a little more experienced, and might have fared better.
If a fighter happens to be a good ticket seller, and wins, he needs to fight more often to help build up the momentum. These guys who are 18 years old fighting right out of high school can be a promoters dream. You have hundreds of friends that can buy tickets to your show and help build up your hype. If you choose to only fight once every 6 months, those friends will mostly have moved on.
brennan wards 1-0 and quinlins 1-0 how doesnt that fight make sense? i think theres a little to much padding of records, there in the fight game and saying they cant find fights and when someone wants the fight everyone says “Its to risky” isnt that the name of the game??? if quinlins as tough as you say he should jump to take the fight i know brennans not trying to pick his opponents hes fighting a ranked 85er in 4 weeks and not stopping or “picking his fights” and after that or sometime soon ward wants the quinlin fight and the toughest guy moves on..thats how it should be…and promise you ward will still have a perfect record after that fight..so lets see it
and both of there pro debuts were against josh mullen, they have the same wrestling credentials, and the same record…on paper i dont think you could get a better fight, someone dont want that fight happen,and i promise you its not ward….
great article and posts…ricardo was willing to go to maine and fight ryan sanders for very little money and no ticket sales since it is 3 hours aways, in his home town…and ryan was willing to take the fight and we will STILL do it hopefully this summer…ok that is my TPS GASSING for the day…some fights make no sense but ricky and ryan do if noone else wants to risk it and IMO so does quinlan and ward…lets not turn this into boxing…a loss is not the end of your career in mma…these young guys should fight each other and may the bets man advance then top 10 guys have to fight them…it is not just about getting there it is about winning there and if the top guys cant beat ANYONE regionally in front of them then they will not succeed in the big shows
As bad as he is at Words With Friends, Mike is right. Record is far less important in MMA than it is in boxing. Dana White and Joe Silva give shots to entertaining fighters and then their progress in the UFC qualifies their title and main event status. If you’re a padded 12-0, you’ll take a back seat to a guy who is 9-6 but has wild submissions or bangs it out in the middle of the ring with anyone.
Woah roofer, easy slugger. Jimmy Quinlan is not ducking ward, not for a damn second. The fight has never been offered to jimmy and when/if it is Jimmy will certainly take the fight without hesitation. And you’re right the bigger badder man will go on……..
The top 10 guys should always test themselves with each other instead of looking for the ticket to the big show and then being exposed !
chucky chuck im not saying quinlins ducking ward but i read over and over that he cant find a fight? thats crazy at this level (1-0)? you should take ANY fight to show your skills if its a soupcan or a stud because any true fighter i know believes he’s winning any fight they walk into..sooo if these guys are so tough they shouldnt even look at the kids name b4 they sign the contract ur not going to find tougher guys in new england as ur gunna in bellator or UFC …and thats what everyones shooting for yea?? so whats the point to look surprised and bad at a big show when u run into the level guy youve been trying to get around in the local scene??? to keep ur record clean? a clean record is not as telling as a guy who will fight any one at anytime and takes tough fights (brennan ward)
and u guys chose fighting for a living..thats kinda like me saying “ugghh im not ready to do this roof its a lil to high and steep maybe when i get a few more under my belt i will”…does that make sense to anyone? ur professionals and train to FIGHT..so lets see a fight quinlin and ward
mark,
of all the lies i have seen anywhere, you just went to the top lmao..i am the BEST at words with friends
there is NO easy way to success that will be sustained…denny, you seem like ur ok with guys NOT taking tough fights cuz they might LOSE? well guess what if they go to the UFC or bellator or strikeforce if they avoid tough fights they WILL lose…I can only speak for ricky, by year end we will fight anyone at 170 and we will not ever price out of a fight…it is the getting fights right now that is giving us so much trouble!
To Roofer,
Actually, it’s may not be the height or the roof pitch that would determine weather or not I accept the roofing job; it could be the nature of the product and my experience level regarding that product. Let me explain:
Suppose I’m a 23 year old Roofing contractor and I view myself as the best asphalt roofer in my area. I always apply six feet of bitch (not the usual three), my drip seams are tight as can be, and my sidewall step flashing is impeccable! I paper top down (not bottom up) and flop the seams top insure straight horizontal lines that are congruent with the ridge and not the eave, thus allowing maximum opportunity to chalk horizontal lines for make-up… I always completely undress the skylights, apply a full bitch wrap (starting from the bottom up, the way we’re supposed to) and then re-step flash those bad boys before re-assembling the full flashing kit. My valleys are also fully bitched and straight as a perfect chalk line will allow. My crew is trained by me to fully tarp and protect walls, shrubs, lawn, etc. In short, I run the best roofing company around.
Suppose there is an open bid coming up on a large Muni job where the spec sheet requires standing seam metal. Let’s say that I have no experience in standing seam metal, I don’t own a seamer and a brake, and I don’t have the rest of the equipment necessary to complete this job. Some day I will, but right now I don’t.
If I bid on and win the bid for the standing seam job and I attempt to do this job when I am not qualified to do so, this could ruin my well established reputation in the area. Faulty installation of the standing seam will also result in my not getting the final payment and could embroil me in a lawsuit that will send my business into ruins.
At 23 years old I should stick with the roofing contracts that I am qualified to handle as I continue to build my skill set as a roofer. Eventually I will be able to handle the 350 square standing seam metal job, but not right now!
Suppose there is another roofing contractor, just like me, who takes on two or three of these jobs that he cannot possibly complete properly and he completely screws them up. He may have done 35 roofs real well, but those three he ruined. He is 35-3. Instead of bidding on those three roofs, I choose to fit in 15 smaller residential roofs, thus making my record 50-0. Who do you think is gonna be viewed in our town as the go-to roofing company ? Probably not the guy who messed up the roofs on the fire station, the church, and the strip mall.
Respectfully,
Old School
TPS Mike,
No where have I said that I am against guys taking tough fights. I just simply tried to show situations that occur regularly as fighters try to find their rung on the MMA ladder. If you re read what I wrote, at no point do I state who should fight and who should not.
Old School
Lol well someones a roofer hey?..thanks for the lecture old school and I am a 23 year old contractor and me and my brothers do run the tightest roofing crew around us and we would never turn down a contract because were totally qualified and as roofers should know how to apply more then just asphalt..if ur a true roofer u can torch u can lay rubber u can lay standing seem, apply any roofing system right? Just like every fighter has to know everything his jits,stand up, wrestling and quinlin and ward are at that point no? So that’s my point there qualified perfect for eachother let’s see it …..respectfully roofer
I think u are explaining why quinlan and ward maybe shouldnt fight but it seems that they both want to so lets see it! NOONE is against tough fights..not one guy in the world as a fan…some fighters are…and IMO if u are going to be successful in the ufc or big shows then u have to fight whoever regardless of their record…if your afraid of a “bad loss” then ur not uFC caliber…this is a good thread…i totally understand all the points of views expressed
Old School,
Love the roofing analogy my man, well thought out and perfectly articulated. However, MMA is not roofing. And it seems this article you wrote has sparked a decent amount of response. This has been a long developing trend in the regional scene here, who’s fighting who and for what reasons. In my opinion Rick nailed it right on the head. If you wanna be a fighter, then fight! period! I respectfully disagree with a lot of the justification for certain regional matchups. MAKE IT TO THE UFC/STRIKE/BELLATOR. Thats the goal right? Padding records? Good to fight this guy and not that guy?
This is my take on the subject. Chuck wants back in the UFC, so he fights MrcusDavis, not some local guy who is up and coming. Chuck gets the respect for going after the right type of opponent. Denis Olsen fight Doomsday, big risk for big rewards. Like Rick stated earlier, Rick Hawn took on anyone for peanuts and is about to enter the second season of Bellators L/W tourney. There are a buch of guys locally knocking at the door but I truely feel it wont be answered for them, not with the questionable matchups going on around here. OldSchool, take for instance DanLauzon, a local guy whos been to the dance and you yourself have defended here on this site multiple times when people questioned his last few opponents. Dan aint going anywhere big soon I can promise you that, not until he steps up to someone who has also been where he was and wants to get back there as well. This upcoming fight with DonCarlo Claus is , in my opinion, the first legit fight that could gain him favor in one of the big 3 promotions. I hope he KO’s DonCarlo and proves he belongs back in the bigs. We will see !
Here is my list of fighters who by there own actions proves they want tough fights, no questions asked…… ORTOLANI, CAMPBELL, ANDERSON, BILL JONES, LEONE, CHUCK ONEIL, OLSEN, ROBERTS, CHIP POLLARD, PROCTOR….. Just to name a few, there are more…. But I truely believe there are a lot of local fighters with winning records who really havent fought anyone big…(kattar/saul almeida) not to name names , but rest assured , there are a bunch more, believe that! How does this affect me??? Well, I love local shows, never miss em. At an avg. of 40bucks a pop, the local MMA scene NEVER disappionts. But there are so many intriguing matchups that will never happen until local MMA PROMOTIONS put their foot down and start dictating the pace , instead of pussy footing and cow-towing to some of these schools and fighters.
I’d like to finish by saying thank you to OldSchool for prividing us with this forum, love the site, the articles, the blogging and the build ups…. See you all at the show
Roofer I see the point you are tying to make here, however Jimmy has had close to 30 plus fights fall through on him over a span of 4 years its been a little crazy. He’s crossed trained over the years and unfortunately has developed a name that managers and fighters instantly say no to or even better say yes then we give them what we call the “google rule” giving them a week to pull out of the fight. Ward is definitely going to find himself in this same spot eventually and unfortunately, as hes already building himself a name.
Your point on taking tough fights makes perfect sense. Too many guys make it to the next level only to get their shit pushed in by higher level of competition. Guys take the safe route to a pretty looking record and unfortunately Joe Silva is all about the winning streaks and not strength of opponents. All they care about is wins in regional competition. I know for myself I only want to take fights against tough UFC vets so when I get the chance to be back in the big show I will be battle tested and ready to perform and stay there as a contender instead of being 3 and done
chuck oneil …great post…these are some of the best responses i have ever read on this site…this problem of ducking fights and padding records is a national problem…its changing mma…chuck oneil last paragraph is the absolute truth and the most honest post i have ever read on this site…hey old school took me 5 times to get the recaptcha right…getting better last time it was 10
To Chuck, RobL, TPS Mike, and Roofer,
Hey, it’s great to swap stories. I guess my point regarding the roofer story is this; take the jobs (fights) that you are prepared to handle at this point in your career. Roofer, it’s great that you and your brothers are true roofing pros; there are a lot out there who are not and claim to be.
Jimmy Quinlan and Brennan Ward ain’t scared of anyone or anything, and both may some day dance on the big stage, but they each need some good management to get there.
I was talking with one of my close MMAssociates the other day, and he made reference to this article, Marcus Davis, and Nuri Shakir. Now I’ve heard this story from several reputable folks in the biz so I know there’s some truth to it. Marcus lost to Nuri (They both had access to the same management team.), but Marcus followed a different management plan and landed in the UFC, cashed in on fifteen UFC fights, several KOTN/Sub bonuses, and made serious coin along the way. Good management has it’s benefits.
Old School
to roofer and old school…your not a real roofer until you roof with slate,thatch or seaweed…lol
OM,
Yeah, and staging is just a crutch for those who don’t belong on the roof in the first place!
Old School
To chucky chuck.. I know what ur sayn and I personally don’t kno quinlin at all and not saying he’s ducking but y don’t we make this happn? If ward gets a hold of quinlin and proposes the fight he’l take?? Not in 2 yrs(sorry old school) and I’m glad u see my point u kno all about it I just think the fight games gettin a lil to dramatic and ppl are hyping fighters up so kno one wants to fight them..and the ppl who turn the fight down shouldn’t even be fighting cause that’s not a fighters heart..how many fights have you declined cold steel on account that the guy might be a tough fight??
Roofer,
At this point probably ever promoter has already jumped on it, but just incase they haven’t…Email me and we can try to set it up on our next May 5th card at Plymouth Memorial Hall. Jimmy had his first fight with us and I know he understands how tough he is to match…He offered to fight for us on many occasions for close to nothing so he could do just that, fight. I heard Ward was very impressive in his debut and has a very similar background so I would love to put that on our show!
Thanks,
Michael
781-264-1178
michael@cagetitansfc.com
Other than meeting him once backstage at the Benoit/Bessette fight for about two seconds, I don’t know Chuck from a whole in the wall. But Roofer, to ask or suggest ‘cold steel’ has or would duck a tough fight, especially after his ‘TUF’ performances, is fn retarded. Like I wrote in my previous post, Chuck went right after Marcus Davis following his release from the UFC, rather than go cherry-picking untested local opponents to pad his record. CHUCK HAS THE SALT. And this situation isnt about Quinlin or Ward. Its about the local guys with 6to10 wins under their belt ducking tough fights for the bogus afformentioned reasons of making it to the “dance” with a string of wins. What a fn crock! And it ain’t just at 185.. Its goes on at all weight classes…
RobL…did I ever say oniel ducks fighhts I asked him bc I know he doesn’t was proving a point so read a lil better my man
my bad
If you guys want a prime example of “record padding” and fighting bums, go to mma.tv or sherdog and look up “Sean McCorkle” and look at the records of the guys he has fought. He’s 15-2 but his opponents records are like a combined 98-179. I think he’s only fought 2 or 3 guys with winning records and lost to 2 of them.
old school i love the read but its easier said then done how do fighters that are good but have a losing record to top ten fighters but can find as u say the right fight its hard on everybody
This thread was just about dead, but I have a couple more points to make…to Denny’s point about who is viewed as the best roofer in town, the guy who has done 35 well and messed up 3, or the guy who has stuck to small ones and always had a good reputation…you hit the nail on the head with your analogy, but the only issue with it is that nobody gives a shit who the best fighter in town is. There have been several guys who were the toughest guys in New England, and they never got a shot at the big show.
Again, it goes back to my original point…you have to figure out what you want as a fighter. Do you want to be known as the best guy in New England, or do you want to make a career out of fighting in the UFC? Do you want to maximize your earnings at the local level, or get the fights you need to get to the UFC? If all you ever want to do is roof houses in your home town, avoid the big jobs…but if you want to expand out beyond your home town and do bigger commercial jobs in the city, you have to prove yourself on some commercial jobs in your home town.
To respond to Lionel, you need to decide what your goal is. You’re talented enough to fight for local titles, but when you’re not the home town hero with the flashy record, you’ll keep getting offered fights against those guys…so you may be in the main event, but everyone in the crowd along with the promoter will be praying you lose. You’ll continue to get offered brutal fights for better than normal money.
If you talk to the same promoters you’re fighting for and tell them you’ll fight for less money, lower down on the card for the right fight, you’ll get offered fights against guys outside the top 10. You get 4-5 wins in a row, and all of the sudden you’re the hero who everyone wants to see.
Quick example, look at Dan Bonnell. He started fighting for WCF when his record was 1-4. He then took short money to fight opponents he matched up well with…not easy fights by any means, but fights he could win. Geo Sontay, Mark Giove, and Barrington Douse. None of those guys are push overs, but none were ranked guys at the time. Dan was coming off losses to Josh Grispi and Ben Manseau, who at the time was like 4-0 with 4 subs. Dan was fighting lower down on the card, but was fighting guys that weren’t expected to murder him. All 3 fights were exciting, and he was able to win all 3. Next thing you know, he’s getting offered the Cushman fight as a co-main event in his home town.
When I say to take less money and easier fights, that’s not saying “easy.” Nobody will tell you Sontay, Giove or Douse are easy fights…however, at the time they were easier fights than guys like Grispi and Manseau.
Or you can just beat everyone.
Quinlin don’t want it!!!
I spoke with both sides and they definitely are in for the fight…Neither one is ducking the other. Just have to get the timing right because Ward is fighting April 13th for CES and our event is May 5th.