This is by far the most irritating thing I have ever read about MMA in the State of Massachusetts. Normally I’m quick to defend the local commission, but no matter how hard I try, I can’t come up with a reason to defend them on this one.
The article is fairly long, but I urge you to click through and read the full article. The quick version-The MA State Commission talked with several people about their thoughts on the double weigh-in, and both Nick Lembo (One of the most respected MMA guys in the country-current on NJSACB) and DR Wulkan, also with NJSACB are very opposed to the double weigh-in, and even went as far as to provide the medical FACTS as to why they are opposed. Though both Mr. Lembo and Dr. Wulkan feel that the double weigh-in would actually put the fighters at MORE of a risk, the MSAC decided to keep the double weigh-in rule.
Please read the article below and post your thoughts on their decision. As always, please make your point but keep it respectful.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/5/7/1462400/politics-more-than-health-behind
What do doctors and the guy who first sanctioned mma and been in it ever since know anyways?
Seriously, I’m glad that this is coming to light on a national level. This was the big issue that Joe Esposito dug in on in the beginning and they shot him down 4-1. Looks like he was right all along. After all he’s the only MMA expert who was appointed. Why listen to him? Remember the headline from a couple of months ago online that said “Mass Commission Loses Mind”? Couldn’t be more true now. Now it’s no longer about kneejerk reactions and pulling info from nowhere. IT’S WORSE. They listened to the hands down most knowledgable people out there with hard facts to support their case, and then went against them, essentially saying that they know better.
Joe Krowski was just sworn in recently and thanfully replaced probably the worst and most arrogant of the bunch. Everyone says that Krowski is a good guy and is on point with moving the sport forward. That means that there are now 2 level heads. But on a board of 5 you need 3.
This is embarrasing. No, wait, this is Massachusetts.
Let me preface this by saying that I haven’t read the article yet….what is the point of this double weigh in rule if both fighters can waive the rule anyway. Every single fighter at Bellator last week waived this double weigh-in rule. The only reason to keep it in my eyes is to transfer the responsibility/liability of injury to the fighters. It’s sort of like having blue laws on the books…yeah no one follows or enforces them but they could always pull that card when they feel like it.
no one who has been following this process is surprised. They need to get ammys up and running immediately. It’s the only way for smaller shows to get started again and it circumvents the commission.
Why the hell can’t they just take the unified (UFC) rules/guidelines, and use them???!!! If they work for the top model in a sport, why does Mass feel they need to do it different???
When do the fighters decide whether or not to waive this rule? Is it at the 1st weigh-in? Cause if so any fighter that sees a far bigger guy may want to consider not waiving this rule, causing the other fighter to maybe have to dehydrate on fight day.
I mean if we weigh my guys before they start cutting…and if they arent too high-then it would be pretty crazy for us to waive the rule.
Of course it may kill the fight if the guy cant make it, but it’d be the guy who refused to waive the rule who got the show money for making weight.
This is messed up on many levels.
So when is it decided if the rule is waived? And can fighters get it into the contract to waive this rule form the moment it is agreed on? I would think that would become the norm if it’s doable.
I’d like to thank all the local dicks who pushed to “help the sport grow” in Mass. Rock the boat too much, and the fucker takes on water. The majority of the MSAC, whether through ignorance or malice, has no interest in seriously supporting MMA.
I would urge all local promotions to start scoping venues in New Hampshire if they want to stay in business
Welcome to the dark side Rick. We knew you would join.
Has anyone graphed the past 4 years of fights before and after the MSAC took over?
To stay on topic, the rule is stupid.
I was at this meeting and the med board was clearly on the side of the fighters stating there was no data, no evidence whatsoever supporting a double weigh in or even a morning of weigh in. They suggested they take some time and create a study, the UFC doc was there and they spoke about NC that has a double with a 13lb allowance and all but one fighter had to re cut and they all we exactly the full 13 over the next day. It seemed like at least 3 maybe 4 of the mass commission understood that this was a bad idea but u never know!!
Before you go to the ends of the earth to bash the MSAC, they have scheduled an open public hearing next Tuesday, May 18 at 10 a.m. at One Ashburton Place, 2nd floor hearing room.
If you have a vested interest in Mixed Martial Arts in this state and want your voice heard- show up or shut up.
The MSAC is 100% vested in seriously supporting MMA in this state; contrary to comments. This is just one issue out of dozens that have already been settled.
Read the article. It has some good information. There is still a serious weight problem issue in combat sports that often gets exploited. Maybe a 2nd weigh-in the day of the fight is not the best idea, but come with an alterative solution to those that abuse the issue.
Tuesday, at 10am, in downtown Boston?? Seems like a nice convenient time, unless you happen to have a JOB.
“If you want your voice heard- shut up” ?????????? wtf
I did not think that it was possible to use vested twice in two sentences, congrats!
“Still a serious weight problem” not really. You make a certain weight at a certain time, you can fight. You don’t, you are out. Tell me what the “problem” really is. The only problem is for the smaller guys who are stuck in the “no mans land” of weight divisions. Too bad. If you want to play in the NBA or the NFL, you need the size. Only a select few have the talent to overcome the size issues.
Why not just stick with what has been working in 41 other states without any serious safety problems, develop an alternative, and THEN put it into play. How did a commission which included just one ONE member with an MMA background and four with NO MMA EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER really expect to “revolutionize” the sport.
I did some research and it looks like the article I linked to was incorrect, and that I jumped the gun with my comments. I did some research, and spoke to multiple people involved with the commission in some capacity, and they said the only part of that particular story that was true was the part about them reaching out to the NJ commission guys.
From what I was told, a second weigh-in WAS NOT yet voted in to the rules. We are still in the exact same spot we were when this idea first came about. The commission voted their current policy into place (double weigh-in with the option of waiving) for a period of 90 days, and they did this to make sure they could they could get everything in place to run shows, and they were going to use the 90 day period to research the double weigh-in, and ultimately decide to either vote it in permanently, or move forward without it.
We are still within that “90 day probationary period” and they are doing exactly what they said they would do…researching the issue and trying to come up with the right solution. They did not vote on whether to keep or remove this yet. Feel free to keep the debate/comments coming, but I wanted to clarify that they have not made any decision yet. They are scheduled to vote on this, and all other rules soon.
Dalton,
1.My comment regarding ‘showing up or shutting up’ was posted because there are a lot of comments on here severly bashing the heck out of the commission. Yeah, if you want to be that harsh I think you should show up and express your opinion or just stop the complaining.
2. Yes, there is a serious weight problem that Boxing (and MMA) have been looking at for years; fighters cutting unhealthy amounts of weight to fight in weight-classes that they shouldn’t be. We see fighters risking their health and safety cutting 20-30+ pounds, only to put 20 back on rehydrating after a weigh-in. We need fighters competing closer to their real weight.
3. You mention the 5 commissioners and their background- what about the deputy commissioners that the commission is constantly asking for input from, regarding MMA issues; Any experience among them?
By the way, the commission oversees more than just MMA.
I have a question for jorbrad96 who clearly seems to be a commissioner.
What serious problem are we facing? What facts are you and the commission going by?
As far as I know, and tell me if I’m wrong, there has never been a problem with someones health in MMA from weight cutting on record. And from reading a few of the posts above it seems like the medical board is interested in doing a study to actually see if it is a problem or not. Now I’m not a doctor but a study like that is one that could take a while, far more than 90 days
Jorbrad…the issue here is whether or not double weigh-ins, or day of weigh-ins are a good idea. As I’ve said from the first time this was brought up, this will not get guys to stop cutting. It will only give them less time to rehydrate. No matter how close to fight time you check the weight, guys will still be cutting.
Years ago, we did day of weigh-ins and guys would still cut a ton, then try to rehydrate. There is no way to truly fix the weight cutting issue, as everyone does it and will continue to do it no matter when the weigh-in is.
If fighter safety is truly the concern, giving the fighters ample time to rehydrate is the best option. Doctors have said as much, and there is a reason why almost every single respected state commission goes with the day before weigh-in rule…it’s because it truly is the safest option. The wheel has already been invented.
Rick, I 95% agree with you. My comments are two fold- the rush to judgement about the commission’s actions and the belief that no attention should be paid to the weigh-in issue.
To answer vinjack; all of us with a long history in mma can probably tell you of many fights inwhich the outcomes have likely been changed/caused by weight-cuts. Rewatch season one of the Ultimate Fighter and then ask any doctor if that was safe.
Day-Of weigh-ins are not a good idea, at all, in my opinion. Physically and mentally they would affect the outcome. I’m against the double-weigh ins, myself.
But I do disagree with you Rick that the wheel has been invented. I don’t think it has. I think there is still a better option yet to come that will keep fighters walking around closer to their competition weight and not have to deal with massive, dehydrating cuts that still affect outcomes. Maybe it is a 30, 14, day-before option, as much as a pain in the ass as it seems.
In support of my above arguement against weight-cutting I give you Marcus Davis comments
“The former pro boxer credited his UFC 113 win to a new pre-fight nutritional and workout regimen that places less emphasis on weight-cutting and weight-lifting.
“I cut out the weight-cutting and didn’t get tired,” Davis said. “When I came back out for the second (round), I felt like I did when I came out for the first. It allows me to train a lot harder right up until the last weeks of the fight instead of needing to take off more time to rest because of the diet change … from 4,000 calories to just under 2,000.”
http://mmajunkie.com/news/19110/marcus-davis-could-draw-nate-diaz-at-ufc-118-if-commission-issues-resolved.mma
As a fighter that has cut weight the right way and the wrong way I can tell you the one thing that was a factor was personal finances. Citing Marcus Davis who has sponsors and the financial resources to diet and supplement correctly, is not the right position to look at this problem. We need to look at the situations that fighters are faced with on an everyday basis. Let’s be honest we have guys that fight only for the extra check. The more weight they lose, the more money they expect. Why because dieting properly is expensive. So this problem will continue to exist on the local level and national level. If you want to see fighters at their natural weight, then the place to go is Japan. Look at what they are doing and the CULTURE of combat sports within THEIR country. This may help to develop a plan/procedure to tackle this issue on all levels.
jorbrad96 er….Todd, just stop it, you’re not fooling anybody. Marcus Davis still had to cut over 17 lbs to make weight which is still outside of your standards.
LOL @ long history in MMA referring to TUF season 1. You really are “old school”…..newb
Are you referring to the same deputy’s who say things about guys without steel cups getting castrated?? Someone who was there get on here and clarify.
Rick, check the ip and see if it’s coming from the state house!
this is getting good!!!!!
The Ultimate Fighter has fighters cutting weight each week due to the show itself and it also has fighters in weight classes they might not normally be in but do it to be on the show. I know the ultimate fighter could not be the studies your using to see if its safe or not.
Marcus Davis is a great fighter but his statement has really no place in this conversation due to reasons that ksturdiv said as well as when a fighter comes off a few loses like he did it’s easy to say different reasons for that lose and cutting is always a good reason to say.
How about working on information for fighters to cut the right way, meaning we educate them and teach the ones your trying to stop rather than hurting the ones that do it correctly.
The only way to stop weight cutting is to do weigh ins like the CBJJ does for its tournaments – you step on the scale then you immediately compete. Not practical for MMA at all, and neither is the double weigh in (aka the double cut).
I know who jorbrad is and I don’t think he’s hiding.
I do disagree with him 100% on this, though. Even a 30 or 14 day check wouldn’t matter…guys would cut then too. No matter how you slice it, guys will cut weight. If you go out any more than the 1 day, it’ll hurt competition because guys will cut even more than they are now.
I like jorbrad a ton but literally could not disagree more with his feelings on this one.
Alright Jobrad, guy cummings was wrong, you are not a commissioner, you are a prized deputy. Apparently you go way back in the sport, even as far as the first TUF. WOW you are a veteran! You really don’s have any business posting here. You came on the scene right about the time that people though Junie Browning was top-notch.
We are in a serious debate over real issues right now. We dont need kid clowns talking about how Landon should have sided with Kenny…..er wrong show. I mean, if you’re idea of case law involves TUF 1, you need to go home, have mom pour you some milk and watch the men play for a while.
See you in a few years………STFU noob!!!!
I was not going to “weigh in” here, but I have a few minutes to kill and I have had this discussion with intelligent people before (some on the website) so here goes:
The objective of having defined weight classes is so that two combatants who are realtively the same size can show who is the better fighter. Most would agree that if everything else is equal, the bigger dog in the fight will win. Size does matter.
If you agree that the idea is to have guys the same size fight each other, the question then becomes what is the best way to ensure that fighters are as close to the same size as possible by fight time.
To me, same day weigh ins make sense. Maybe you do it the morning of the fight and then you have the whole day to rehydrate (if necessary) and eat as close to a normal meal as possible, much like athletes in other sports do. As far as the argument that guys will always go to extremes to cut weight I dont buy it, once you hit a certain point you’re just hurting yourself and the advantage flips to the guy who didnt cut as much. Fighter will adjust as necessary to better position themselves to win.
The safety factor really comes from boxing, where extreme weight differences have resulted in guys being seriously hurt (Joey Gamache).
The biggest argument for the current Unified Rules day before weigh in is, in my opinion, that it is the MMA standard and to have Mass be a “one off” sucks for the sport. It will be harder to bring big shows here and we will be fighting by different rules than everybody else.
At any rate, it’s a legit argument but I hope it does not derail the sport in our state. For now, I’d probably rather fight in NH…
I was laughing a bit over all of the personal shots at me, and all of the speculation, as if I was hiding off in the shadows, being sneeky. I was about to clarify my background, but now I’ve find it more fun watching this diatribe unfold. I will say that no, I’m not a commissioner and yes, I go back further than TUF 1, and yes, Rick does know.
Read back and understand my point. The commission put the double weigh-ins in place and I don’t like it. I’m against day-off weigh ins as well. And yes, fighters will always have to cut weight.
What exactly is wrong with discussing the best options for weight-cutting?
Forcing a 30 day out cut and having the fighter maintain it is just one idea thrown out there. Rehydrating a fighter in less than 24 hours is not believed to be enough time to ensure that the outcome of the fight isn’t affected.
My mention of TUF 1 was only to use as a picture/example of the legnths it takes some fighters to go through, pre-fight, to make weight. The arguement is whether THAT kind of weight cut would affect the outcome of the fight.
Dalton……….maybe we should compare backgrounds sometime. Where do you train?
And, to comment on Kerrigan; nice articulation, especially with defining the objective.
Larry, we’re boys but I have to disagree. For anyone who saw Drew Fickett struggle to make weight when he fought against Kenny Florian at Combat Zone 7, it was pretty obvious that he cut just as much as normal, and was seriously dehydrated. The weigh-in was at about 5:30 PM and they fought at like 9:30.
No matter what time the weigh-ins are, guys will cut. They may try to be closer, but there will always be a few guys on every show completely sucked out…and as has been said numerous times, the risk of brain injuries increase exponentially when not properly hydrated.
So we have to ask ourselves…what is more risky, having a fight where one fighter isn’t properly hydrated and more at risk for a serious brain injury, or having a fight where one guy has a weight advantage over the other? To me, the choice is clear. We’ve seen guys fight at weight disadvantages for as long as the sport has been around, and while I do agree that if all things equal, the bigger guy wins…I also think it’s fair to say that all things equal, the hydrated guy wins as well. Bottom line, I’m convinced guys will continue to cut, and I think the lesser of two evils is one guy having a size advantage.
I’d also hate to be the guy voting in a policy that doctors and veteran commissioners say is more dangerous than the way every othr state does it. I’m not a lawyer, but I wonder about possibly liability. If they decide to rule against the recommendation of veteran fight doctors, the medical advisory board, as well as other head injury specialists…what happens if someone gets seriously injured and it’s determinded that it was due to not being properly hydrated?
Would said fighter’s family have any legal recourse? I imagine it’d be easy to argue that the state athletic commission was acting recklessly by going against the recommendation of the medical community as well as 41 other state athletic commissions.
Hey jorbrad, I train at the Double Deuce, nightly, from 8 till close
I’m sorry if I pushed your buttons, it an unhealthy hobby of mine.
I’ve always believed that you should be nice until it’s time to not be nice.
that is funny, Dalton. You are the cooler
Hey Rick, intelligent people can disagree respectfully…and then the guys that like to insult and challenge each other to fight on this web site can entertain the hell out of us.
Rick, I agree that day-of is much worse but less than 24 hours is not much better. These are still hydration issues that affect the sport and the outcomes. Skill and training aside- we don’t want weight-cutting to be a decisive factor
If you’re 15-20 average above (reasonable) and you have a 30/14 day of weigh-in to cut for; at least you have plenty of time to train and stay hydrated at that weight. There are a ton of variables and this option might not be the best, simpley because of last minute fight changes, but examining ways to get fighters to take their weight more seriously is a good topic.
Dalton.. Dalton…… Dalton
I think that, sure, there could be ways to improve the system, but it’s highly unlikely. Reason being, money. The logistics and costs associated with trying to weigh guys in 3 times would be staggering. It’s hard enough to get some of these guys to show up to day before weigh-ins on time. Also, most guys on the local level are not even sure they are fighting 30 days before an event. I think that there is not sufficient evidence to show that the weight cuts pose a serious issue in regards to health and safety. Until there is such evidence, go with what has been working.
I was getting tired reading all the posts but what i picked up was a “3 stage weigh in” and the “day of weigh in” as ideas. The 3 stage weigh in is not a good idea because the fighter will show up at the 1st one already cutting, this way he then could try to go even lower, this is something wrestlers have done in the past and they got rid of it for that reason. And the day of won’t help because real weigh cutting is done on a timeline so all your doing is changing that- the process will be the same and medically you need 24-48 hours to truly hydrate yourself back.
This isn’t set in stone YET. Honestly I have yet to talk to one fighter who thinks this is a good idea.
Could you imagine if the UFC came to Boston and say a fighter makes someone like a GSP or Thiago Alves weigh-in twice??? To make matters worse imagine if GSP failed to make weight on the second attempt and the welterwelt championship is put on hold…. So many things could go wrong and the press would be awful for Massachusetts.
There hasn’t been a problem with the way weigh-ins in MMA have been going. No need to change it. I think some of the commisioners might be caught up n a boxing frame of mind with all this.
The Commission is so new and I really don’t see the need to make changes like this right now. Wait it out. If in a year there are problems that need to be fixed, than fix them!! But why not just do things like they’ve been working.