I was able to attend the commission meeting on 3/13/10, and was very impressed. They covered a variety of topics, including the double weigh-in as well as clarification of elbow strikes. Before I get into any of that, I want to take a minute to applaud the commission and their efforts. The meeting took place in a boiling hot conference room at 9:00AM on a Saturday morning. Due to the fact that the commissioners were named only a couple weeks ago, and shows are scheduled in the same month, they had a huge task ahead of them to ensure things run smoothly, and I don’t think too many readers on here truly appreciate and understand the giant task they are taking on.
They didn’t meet today because they all enjoy each other’s company, and Saturday happened to be a great time to meet…they met today at 9:00AM because they are working hard to get things right, and get things done on time for the shows. I truly got the impression that they really care, and want to get things right. They aren’t talking about the things they are to make things difficult…they truly want to mold the very best rule book they can, for everyone.
They started off by talking about appointing a medical board, similar to what they have in boxing. They will meet several times per year and have several doctors and medical professionals on the board, and they are going to assist the commission with various rules. One issue they want to talk to the board about is the proper pre-fight and post-fight exams/physicals. They made a comment about wanting to make sure they were doing enough, but at the same time not over kill. So even on “smaller” issues like this, they are taking the time to get it right. Several other topics for the board were talked about but if I detailed everything, this would be way too long to read.
They also talked about getting a script in place for the rules meetings so the same message is conveyed every show, no matter where it is and who is conducting the rules meeting. Great idea by the way.
Senator Brian Joyce was also in attendance, and he spoke to the commission about several things, one of which was how he felt the shows he’s attended in recent months, before the commission involvement were “exceptionally well run” and any efforts that can be made as to not disrupt future events should be made. The commission and Senator Joyce all offered to help the promoters in attendance with various issues they expected to face, and this portion was very productive. The point was driven home that the commission is on board with getting things right, and done in a timely manner as to not stunt economic development.
The topic of the double weigh-in was brought up, and they talked about how they want to make sure they want to do some research, and talk to the medical advisory board about the safest option for the fighters and but they didn’t like the idea of turning the sport on it’s head while they did their research, so what was proposed was that the rule should be ammended so that the second weigh-in is not mandatory, and the fighter contracts will have a spot for the fighters to either sign a waiver saying they understand that their opponent can come to the ring/cage at whatever weight they want, as long as they make the agreed upon weight at the weigh-in. So if both fighters agree to a day before weigh-in only, and sign a waiver saying that, their fight will only have the day before weigh-in. If they do not sign the waiver, they will have to acknowledge the double weigh-in, and both fighters will both be weighed in on fight day as well.
I’m not a lawyer, and tried to type that as formal sounding as possible…but in simple terms…if both guys sign a waiver saying they are ok with their opponent not having to weigh-in twice, it’s just the 1 weigh-in, which is the day before. If they don’t sign the waiver, both guys weigh-in twice under the rules we talked about on the other article. They are going with this format for now, and will make a formal decision after doing their research.
A big portion of the meeting was also dedicated to training ref’s and judges. Kevin MacDonald will post some details on that, but it was all great news. The proposed amateur rules were also passed around, and they are going to be looked at and voted on at a later date. They didn’t give the date, but gave the impression that it would be very, very soon. The topic of getting new refs and judges appointed/trained was also discussed, and it looks like refs/judges will have to take a formal class, then shadow at an amateur event, and ref/judge at amateur fights before moving up to pro fights. They didn’t comment on whether or not amateur shows would be kept seperate from pro shows, or if pro-am would be acceptable.
Another topic that was wrapped up was elbow strikes, more specifically point of the elbow, or 12 to 6 elbows. They defined the illegal elbows as “down ward striking” and went on to clarify in several ways…but basically 12 to 6 elbows are illegal, but they didn’t want to call them 12 to 6 because what if it’s 11:45 to 6:00? Ref’s aren’t going to carry protractors in the ring/cage, and if you throw and elbow that is close to 12 to 6, it’s illegal. So the elbows that Jon Jones hit Hammill with causing the DQ are still illegal…and the elbows that Kenny Florian hit Joe Lauzon with are still legal. Ceiling to floor is illegal…that’s about it. You all know what that means, so please don’t be a pain in the ass for the sake of being a pain in the ass.
Overall the meeting was great, and I wanted to update you all with the details I had. Feel free to ask questions and we’ll do our best to answer them.
Thanks for the updates Rick, I really appreciate it! Personally I feel they should take the rules of the most established orginization in the world, (UFC) and go over their rule set, trying to bring our state in line with those. Hope to get info on the amateur fights asap~!!!
The problem with that is, though the UFC has their own regulations, they don’t set the concrete rules. Whether in (Las Vegas) Nevada or any other state the UFC has to follow the rules of that state.
I think we’re definitely trying to follow the lead of the Nevada State Athletic Commission, who has done a solid job and has deep experience.
In regards to the amateurs I submitted an application and all associated paperwork to the Athletic Commission at Saturday’s meeting for KRANE to be approved as a state recognized amateur MMA sanctioning body. I hope to get on the docket at the next meeting to answer any questions and gain approval. As soon as this happens, we’ll be able to get the amateurs going again.
Hmm… Dysqo Dave wants to be a judge! Heck I couldnt be any worse than Cecil Peoples!
The state website will soon be posting information about an initial referee and judge certification course on Tuesday, March 23 at the Dept. of Public Safety. Minimum qualifications for the referee course will be 50 or more bouts refereed with no less than 10 of those bouts occurring in the last 12 months. Minimum qualifications for judge course will be 100 or more bouts with no less than 30 of those bouts occurring in the last 12 months. I believe it will be posted tomorrow.
One thing about elbows is that states interpret 12-6 differently.At rules meetings in some states they define it as a fighter on top coming straight down.In other states when they say 12-6 and I have asked them to clarify they say they mean 12-6 in relation to the opponent.So it can be 12-6 when you elbow someone who’s in your guard if you extend your arm straight up from your angle(in other words parallel to the mat and come down(in relation to the opponent) on him.I’m just wondering which interpretation this state will use.
Its good that new rules are being put in place and that there will be some new organization. It just seems that most of this could have been discussed and put into motion a little sooner, as to avoid the majority of confusion that has just seemed to be dumped out onto us all. Cutting weight, and striking are 2 big objects in our preparation, and along with other fighters, It seems to just lend a sense of confusion and uncertantity. Plus I heard rumors that the comission is in disagreeance on alot of issues, but that may be heresay.
But as a part of the MMA field, its good this is happening, especially the weight part, too many guys are cutting and gaining outrageous weight, its more about fighting at a natural state. If your 185, then fight there is my opinion.
All in all, Im looking forward to this working out to benefit us all, and bring MMA in Mass to a national recognized level in competition aspects. Like any system of authority, theres going to be pros and cons, its up to all of us to make it the best system possible.
Its good that new rules are being put in place and that there will be some new organization. It just seems that most of this could have been discussed and put into motion a little sooner, as to avoid the majority of confusion that has just seemed to be dumped out onto us all. Cutting weight, and striking are 2 big objects in our preparation, and along with other fighters, It seems to just lend a sense of confusion and uncertantity. Plus I heard rumors that the comission is in disagreeance on alot of issues, but that may be heresay.
But as a part of the MMA field, its good this is happening, especially the weight part, too many guys are cutting and gaining outrageous weight, its more about fighting at a natural state. If your 185, then fight there is my opinion.
All in all, Im looking forward to this working out to benefit us all, and bring MMA in Mass to a national recognized level in competition aspects. Like any system of authority, theres going to be pros and cons, its up to all of us to make it the best system possible.
Rick thank you so much for passing on the info. from the Commission meeting. Greatly appreciated!!! It sounded like things are moving forward in a good way/ 65% toward the right direction. Looking forward to read more updates and once again thank you for your time and wisdom. Kru Saroeum
I should have read this one before I read the last one and commented. Thanks for the clarification and updates, Rick!
Hey Bill, downward striking (12-6) elbows will be interpreted as “downward striking, heaven to hell, piston firing up and down, fist to the ceiling elbow to the floor” . As some have put it, Jon Jones/Matt Hamill = NOT OK, Kenny Florian/Joe Lauzon = OK. A good way to define downard is that “if you drop a ball from your hand, gravity will cause it to fall downward”. There will be some referee discretion however (i.e. the Jon Jones could elbow be argued that it’s not quite coming from 12:00 maybe 11:55) so I would advise staying away from anything resembling a vertical drop to ensure no point deductions. Gotta run, hope that helps!
Bill, the way I described above is the way they are going to rule it. Ceiling to floor is illegal. Parallel is legal. They said something about “with gravity” so when they say up and down, they literally mean up and down…ceiling to floor. Left to right is fine.
I’ve always thought the wording was super important. “12 to 6″ or “downward” elbows or anything like that should only be called “Ceiling to Floor” elbows. Nice and simple.
The ceiling and floor are literal things and are always there as literal reference points at any given time regardless of a fighter’s position whereas a clock is something most people picture as something they can hold in their hand and turn in any direction if need be.
Calling them “ceiling to floor” is great for the refs too because it ensures that you won’t have Bill at a rules meeting arguing that true “up” and true “down” doesn’t even exist on a spherical planet. Or debating the gravity thing, probably citing that gravity is not constant depending on the type of matter and it’s size or something… And man if we even tried calling them “heaven to hell” elbows he would tear that apart in seconds and then probably convert half the room to Scientology lol
You guys keep using Florian-Lauzon as an example of legal elbows. Does that mean elbows to the back of the head are legal?
In reference to the direction of which the elbows traveled, Florian’s elbows were legal. However, where they landed could make them illegal…same as any other legal strike. Up kicks are legal, but an up kick to the groin would clearly be illegal. Moving forward in MA the elbows Florian threw at Lauzon from guard are legal as long as they are to approved targets.
The back of the head rule, and what defines back of the head is a topic for another day.
I prefer to just demonstrate what is ok and what is not at a rules meeting. That way, if there are questions, everyone will hear the answers and be on the same page. One could argue that a 45 degree angle would hit the ceiling and the floor in a large enough auditorium. I kind of like the “dropping a ball or piston example”.
As far as back of the head, that will be another article for another day.
I’m a little confused on the licenses. the fighter license is straight forward. But, what I’m unsure of is the Trainer’s License and the Second’s License. I train and live in Vermont, so do my coaches need to be licensed trainers in Mass for me to fight in Mass or do we just need to have a Second’s License for them to be in my corner?
Well, depending on what type of engine you have, pistons don’t always go up and down. We could do this all day…everyone on here knows what we mean though.
Thanks for clearing that up, fellas.Just know that I’ve gone over this in many states in in at least two that use the unified rules I was told “of course if he’s in your guard and u elbow his face down in relation to u that’s a downward elbow:”In one state I was called “stupid” by a ref who probably boxed in the 50′s and clearly suffered much brain trauma in the 50′s.
And I’m back to Buddhism this week,Slo.Not the hippie yoga 3rd eye crap version.
Bill, will you and Scott be coming to the fundraiser for Senator Brian Joyce
why is it that everyone on this forum understands the rules except Bill Mahoney? Bill are you just trying to be difficult or is that really that hard to understand that 12/6 is in reference to a clock and that nobody hangs their clock from the 3 on its side. i haven’t been on here in awhile and i never get into it with anybody but it just seems to me that this guy is trying to rib everybody and be difficult.
for anyone online in the next ten minutes, Head Ref Kevin will be calling in to mma monthly to do an online interview – If i had to guess the questions will be about the changes – u can hear it at http://www.mmamonthly. org
Sorry guys, Kevin was at the fire dept. and had to respond to a call, hope to have in on next week!
Varner, yeah just email me that information.
Rainman, 80% of what mahoney says is a joke. Plus he’s a huge douche.
Yesterday, the Commission was not at full staff so no vote was taken on Amateur MMA sanctioning. There was talk of 60-90 days to let different sanctioning bodies come in and present applications. I feel that there should be multiple sanctioning bodies so that no monopolies are created and costs will stay low for fighters and promotions. With that being said I also know how many promotions rely heavily on amatuers to make their shows happen. I passed in the application and associtated paperwork/regulations for KRANE Amateur mma sanctioning last Saturday and had been hoping to get at least one org. approved to keep the amateurs and the pro/am’s moving. If you believe that amateur mma needs to happen sooner rather than later please let your voice be heard via email to the commission. The state worked VERY quickly to get the pro’s up and running because they knew how important that it was. I’m not sure that they realize just how big and important that sanctioning amatuers is in regards to growing the sport, its competitors, and officials. If this is something that is important to you, please let them know. I’m sure that if they see just how crucial the amateurs are to the mma industry, they will move just as quickly and efficiently as they did with the pros. Any emails should be directed to:
ronnie.drimer@state.ma.us
and/or
guy.licciardi@state.ma.us
Question for you Kevin, was Joe Esposito there? If so where was he on the issue? I agree that amateurs must happen asap. Why is the commission breaking balls over something they dont technically sacntion anyways????