A disturbing trend that I see at many MMA shows lately is that every other fight seems to have one fighter’s camp screaming for their fight to be ruled a “No Contest” or that some part of the call should be overturned. Kevin and I had a conversation last weekend and I asked him to put something together that details exactly why none of these fights ever get overturned, and ultimately I hope this leads to a better understanding of the rules, and less complaints from fight teams. Below is what Kevin sent over:
Overturning a Call
Why the overturning of calls is a rare occurrence
One of the most controversial and stressing issues for many fight promoters, fans, and fighters here is Massachuestts is what to do when one team disagrees with a call that has been made. It is a very tricky situation in the absence of a legitimate unbiased sanctioning body. A promoter really can’t make the call because he has a vested financial interest in the outcome. The referee is is in a tough situation because, in most cases, it is his call that is in question. Historically videotape has not, nor do I feel should it be used without special circumstances. Who does this leave to make the decision. Many promotions use an independent arbitrator, which, in the spirit of passing the buck, I love. Others place that burden into my hands, and I take it very seriously. Anyone who has been to a rules meeting I have conducted has heard something along these lines:
“If you take issue with a call that may be made tonight, respectully and calmly bring it to the attention of __(head official / arbitrator) . They will talk to the parties involved (i.e. judges, referees, fighters, corners, etc) and determine the best course of action. The decision will be made tonight and if it is a judgement call, it will NOT be overturned.”
The reason we say that is because we try to be as professional as possible. We expect others to do the same. If someone comes up yelling and calling us names, they will not be heard. Most commissions won’t even speak to you other than tell you that you must file paperwork through the US mail and then have to wait until a meeting is convened to discuss and/or vote on it. Often times this takes months. We figure that, all the involved partied are present that night, let’s figure it out. It may require us staying later than everyone else, but let’s look into and decide that night so that it’s done. That way, fighters checks can be written, results can be posted, and, win or lose, the decision is made.
As far as judgement calls not being overturned, this is a non-negotiable. The referee has 2 jobs in every bout. First, keep the fighters safe and act on their behalf if they feel the fighter is not in a position to make a sound decision. Second, enforce the rules and keep things as fair as possible. In order to perform these 2 jobs effectively we must know that our calls will stand. To start allowing those outside the cage tell those inside whether someone is able to defend themself is not safe. It is the referee who has the best perspective to look in the eyes of each fighter and neutrally judge their situation. This is why they are hired. The referees we use around here include some of the best. Sure we have made some mistakes but that is unavoidable. What I can tell you is that, whenever questionable things happen, complaint or not, we study it and talk about how to make sure it doesn’t happen again. This is a young sport, the only way to get experienced referees is to train them. And the only real way to train them is to give them experience and then critique it. That means, when a referee makes a call because they are looking out for somebodys safety, we can’t overturn it. We have to give them the benefit of the doubt. If it proves to be a recurring problem, then maybe they are not cut out to referee and action will be taken.
In regards to not using video, the referee’s call is made from the referee’s perspective, not a camera out in the crowd. There are many situations when only the three people in the ring know all the details. And of those three, only one is neutral, the ref. Sometimes, in a cage there are angles where it is not possible for a referee to even see what the crowd may find blatant. But the referee can only rule on what he sees with his own eyes. I cannot say video will never be considered, but there has to be a very compelling reason. And if there is, we will certainly consider it.
In closing, I want you all to know how serious that the officials in this area take our positions. I am proud of the job we do and I think that MMA in New England has done pretty darn well up to this point when you think about how there is no sanctioning body (with the exception of NH). If you ever have questions or concerns, please don’t hesitate to ask. I have a strong feeling that we will be seeing the state commission step into MA soon and I really hope it does right by the sport we have worked so hard to build up. Thanks for reading and God Bless!
Kevin the Ref
Kev, for those that don’t know, can you give us a couple examples of judgement calls? Two fights come to mind…Bicalho vs. Pedro and Spearman vs. Flores 2. Both fights were stopped while fighters were in chokes, but did not tap. The referee said he thought they were out, and stopped it. That is a judgement call that can not be overturned, right?
What is an example of something that could be overturned?
Unfortunately, I was not at the Bichalo/Pedro fight, but I was at the Spearman Flores fight. In that fight the referee felt that Flores went out. He detailed how he came to his decision and it it was clear that, based on the signs he saw, he was acting on behalf of a fighter who he felt was in trouble.
After talking to other referees in the local scene, I think that we are all in agreement that if someone is being choked and does not want to tap, we’ll let them go out. The tough part is recognizing the moment they are out and stopping it that instant. We want to let the fight go as long as possible and give every fighter every possible opportunity to escape. But, if it appears they are out, we would be demonstrating gross negligence to not stop it immediately.
As far as something that could be overturned, I was on the pedestal a few months ago. There was a fight where there was some blatant fence grabbing. After multiple warnings and 2 points taken away for the same violation, one fighter was knocked out while his opponent used the fence again for leverage. When the promotion inquired I said I made a clear mistake in not disqualifying the fence grabbing fighter. There were more details (as there always are) and I won’t get into all of them, but that is a situation where I agreed that I made a mistake and the call could be overturned.
Hope that is what you are looking for. If anyone ever has a question, please come up and ask. I enjoy telling people how and why we do things both for their benefit and mine. It will either reinforce my belief in the rule or have me reexamine it.
What if a person is in anothers guard and there is a cut, does the fight get restarted standing or in the position that it was stopped in.
In that situation the fight should be stopped, the doctor would determine if the fight could continue and, if so, back to guard. If it is not a clean position (i.e. guard, mount, side) then it’s back to the feet. The purpose of the stoppage is only to see if the cut is serious enough to stop the fight. Also, if you are fighting and this situation arises, make sure you make it clear as you get up what the position was. I have seen it happen where so much is going on, the fight is restarted on the feet because nobody remembered and nobody said otherwise.
p.s. nice elbow the other night k!
Thanks. Just wondering. Besides the fighter can a corner call this out because as a fighter you are so in the moment that being that aware (IMO) that is often tough to verbalize.
Great article Kevin.
Question for Kevin,
Kevin, Do you allow more seasoned fighters with more ring time more time to fight back or more time to escape mounted strikes for instance than other fighters? or do you treat a fighter making his debut the same as someone like Nuri for instance.
Lets look at the last WCF, and i’d like you to comment on these two instances please. In the fight with Nuri he suffered a standing tko loss, Nuri stated he was fine and could take much more punishment than that. if you were in the ring would you have aloud him more time?
Another fight was Dan Bonnell vs Ferrer. It seemed imediatley that Ferrer had Bonnell in trouble with that Kimura from the start, yet Bonnell fought off what looked like the Kimura from hell for well over 2 minutes and i cringed just watching it. Did you allow Bonnell that time to escape due to his level of experiance or did you feel he wasn’t in trouble of his arm being seperated or broken?
I can’t believe I’m actually communicating with Lit’s penis!! Seriously though, in the case of amateurs and brand new fighters referees should always err on the side of safety. Seasoned fighters may be given the benefit of the doubt, but it all depends on the situation. If at any time a fighter appears to go out and there is a barrage of head strikes coming down the pike, the ref should stop it, period. It can be just one strike that makes the difference between a fighter saying we stopped it too early, and that same guy eating out of a tube for the rest of his life. I Nuri’s fight I thought the ref stopped it just right. I was sitting ringside and right when I saw things unfold I thought this should be stopped now. And that was right when it was. Nuri did not agree and I can certainly respect that. There are countless times when fighters honestly think that they are fine even when they cannot stand up on their own. It is our job to look out for them.
It is a silly argument to say that a referee should let someone get hit a few more times in the head because he is “tough”. Now let me clarify, if you’re a toguh pro fighter and you are taking shots, the ref give you plenty of time to do your thing. If however that scenario changes to where you are taking head shots and going out, it must be stopped. Otherwise that ref is negligent.
As far as the Bonnell fight, if two guys are experienced, tough, professionals like those two, the ref should probably not stop a submission unless there is a tap or a break. Both of those guys were of sound mind, knew the situation they were in at all times, and were in no real danger of anything other than ending up in a cast for the summer. That’s the difference. To knowingly not tap and get put out or a limb broken, shame on you. To be in a situation where you cannot intelligently make that decision and the fight continues, shame on me. Hope that answers your questions.